Mastering & Mentoring with Claire Stokes of PMU Focus

Introducing Claire Stokes of PMU Focus

Lisa: Oh, hello, and welcome to the next session of our microblading and permanent makeup Studio Sessions. Today I have with me the very lovely Claire Stokes from PMU Focus in Grantham, in the UK, that’s Lincolnshire.

Our talk today has a working title: Mentoring and Mastering, or Mastering and Mentoring. Claire is one of those people who’s quietly helped shape the permanent makeup industry over the past few years. So many people know of her, and of her quiet, resilient, and supportive hands.

I first met Claire in 2018 at a conference, and when I launched Botched Ink® a while later, she joined us. She’s since become one of our long-term techs and trainers, running lots of classes around the country, which has been wonderful. Claire’s a great trainer to have, and students love her.

There are so many ways Claire supports our industry, not just through training and support, so I want you to really get to know her.

Claire, tell us a little bit about your permanent makeup story. Where did it all begin?

Claire: Well, I suppose it truly began when I was doing work experience as a beauty therapist. My very first boss, back in 1998, offered permanent makeup, and I was fascinated by it. I really wanted to do it, but I just couldn’t afford the training. As a student trying to save up for a house, I didn’t have the money it cost back then.

Lisa: Training even in 2012 was expensive, six, eight, ten, even twelve grand.

Claire: I looked into it and it was over £10,000 in 1998. My first house cost £32,500, so when you put that in perspective, it was just an incredibly large amount.

Lisa: Yeah, and back then there were barely any techs. Seriously, in 2012 there were hardly any, let alone 10 or 15 years earlier. So you were aware of it way ahead of the trend?

Claire: Yes, it planted the seed. I thought, That’s really interesting, I’d like to find out more, but it went on the back burner for a few years.

Then in 2012, a lady joined me at my clinic, working in the back room, doing permanent makeup. She’d come home from Hungary and was doing brows, lips, liner… I used to love watching her work. If I had five minutes spare, I’d go stand at the door.

Lisa: Was it the buzz of the tattoo machine as well?

Claire: Yeah, just everything about it. I was fascinated. A couple of years in, she said, “I’m really busy, I could do with someone to help. Do you want to come on board as a bit of an apprentice?”

We discussed it at length, and I gave her some money… but unfortunately it didn’t work out. She moved away, and I was left with loads of her clients, mine, really, who needed top-ups but couldn’t get them.

So I made the decision: It’s now or never. It was a great opportunity, but I hadn’t got the money. I used my credit card, my savings, had a chat with Mum and Dad… I really stretched myself to cover the training.

I went down to Sussex, trained for four days, then did my case studies. There wasn’t a huge amount of support, and I think I was a bit gung ho and confident. The training was very good at making you believe you could do anything.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah.

Claire: It’s good to leave with confidence, but you can be too confident.

Lisa: I think we might’ve had the same training company! That thing where you walk away after four days and just start your case studies… how long did yours take?

Claire: I was lucky. I’d already driven my social media before I trained. Everyone who was a client at my clinic, which I’d been running for eight years, knew that this was my new direction. I came back and got everyone booked in for case studies. I think I did them all in about three months.

Lisa: You did exactly what I did, got off the course and just got on with it.

Claire: Yeah. Every single penny I took through those case studies, I think I charged £175 per person, went into a separate pot. Nothing to do with anything else. It was purely to pay off the credit card, Mum and Dad. That was my absolute focus, to clear that first before anything else.

Lisa: I did a Groupon. Back when Groupon was okay. Well… a different kind of okay!

Claire: Yeah, exactly!

From Technician to Mentor

Lisa: So, you joined the industry and were pretty much launched straight away, which is wonderful, same for me. And I know you do other beauty treatments too, but permanent makeup is your focus, and it’s also your Focus! What drew you into the mentoring side of things? When did the idea for PMU Focus begin, even before it had a name?

Claire: When I started, there really wasn’t any support, not even from my trainer. If I messaged her, I’d barely get a response. Or I’d get a very unhelpful, “Yeah, that’s great.”

As I got going, I started investing in masterclasses, but I probably wasn’t ready for them. The gap between starting out and being ready for a masterclass… it was huge. There was nothing in between.

There weren’t the social media forums we have now. No subscriptions like there are now.

Lisa: They’re a blessing in disguise. Hold on, no, a blessing and a curse. Not even in disguise.

Claire: Exactly. I was literally on my own. But the positive side of that was, I wasn’t constantly on social media comparing myself to others.

Lisa: I 100% agree. You found your own style. Your own way of working.

Claire: Yes, I wasn’t constantly doubting myself because I didn’t have hourly images to compare to.

Lisa: But that does have a downside, it can be a lonely place. You end up researching on your clients. Learning on your clients.

Here’s an off-topic one, how long after your initial training did you even dare try a different pigment brand?

Claire: I think it was a good three years. I went to another tech, very talented, and had my brows and lips done. I didn’t want to travel to Sussex again. She was using a brand that was popular at the time. It was a blessing and a curse.

Lisa: It took me a long time too.

Claire: Machine and everything, it was the same setup I’d learned with.

Lisa: Because we didn’t know!

Claire: Right, and mostly because it was an inorganic pigment. Other than being warm, which was a bit annoying, nothing terrible happened. It faded. You could rework it. So it wasn’t terrible.

Lisa: But one of the good things about having limited access to new info, it forced us to really understand what we were doing.

Claire: Yes, I knew all my pigments inside out. As soon as someone walked in, I knew what colour I was going to use.

Lisa: So much of that is missing now.

Claire: Now it’s, “Here’s a dodgy photo of a client’s face, what colour should I use?” And I get it, people are apprehensive about choosing, but you need to learn.

Lisa: Absolutely. You need to know what you’re actually using.

What Makes a Good Trainer?

Lisa: So… choosing trainers wisely. Let’s talk about beginner trainers.

Claire: You need someone who’s established. Someone who’s genuinely been in the industry for a long time. You do not want someone who’s only been doing PMU for less than two years. Even if they’ve worked every single day, it’s still not enough to be passing that knowledge on.

Lisa: Two years is seriously not enough to be a trainer. They haven’t come across everything they need to.

Claire: I’d say at least five years. And that’s coming from someone who’s been teaching in the beauty industry since 2001. I worked full-time in a college. But I only started teaching PMU around five years ago, after the lockdowns. That’s when I started creating my own courses.

Lisa: And that’s because otherwise, all you’re really teaching is how to put pigment in. Not how to maintain it. If you haven’t seen your own work fade over the years, you can’t pass that knowledge on.

So… what do you think about trainers who have huge Instagram followings but no website?

Claire: I haven’t really got time for social media. It’s all edited. These “You can earn £250,000 in your first year” posts… it’s rubbish. Hands up, I don’t earn £250,000!

I’m established. I work three long days a week, which suits me and everything else going on in my life. But I am not a quarter-millionaire!

Lisa: That word, “established.” That’s it. With Botched Ink, I was never chasing instant fame. I was chasing still being here and still being relevant.

Claire: Exactly. But social media sells it as a quick buck. Like, “You’ll earn fast, you won’t have to work many hours.” Well, you might not in clinic, but there’s learning time, skill honing… there’s a lot of work to be done.

Lisa: There’s a lot of work to be done. And awesome skills don’t always mean someone’s an awesome trainer.

What Makes a True Teacher?

Claire: Absolutely not. I’ve been on masterclasses with people who do the most stunning eyeliner that heals beautifully, but they just show you how they do it. They don’t teach you to do it.

One of my absolute favourite trainers was for eyeliner, and this was only two or three years ago. As soon as I walked into her class, she looked at me and said, “I’m not here to teach you to be me. I’m here to teach you to get my results, your way.”

I absolutely loved that, because just doing her hand movements wasn’t necessarily going to work for me. I was using a different machine.

Lisa: And did that actually work?

Claire: Yes, absolutely. She said, “I’m here to help you create what I create, but in your way. You’re an individual, you’re not me, so you’re not going to do it my way.”

Lisa: Was it a small class or a bigger group?

Claire: There were four of us. A nice small, personal class. I won’t go on a class that’s more than six. I’m not keen on bigger groups.

Lisa: I feel like so many “trainers”, and I use that word loosely, are actually just presenters.

Claire: Yes. Massively. They just present, they’re not really training.

Lisa: So what’s your grasp of the difference?

Claire: A presenter is someone who just regurgitates what they’ve been taught. They haven’t got their own ideas. They don’t have their own experience to draw on.

A proper trainer should be someone who’s well-rounded, who’s worked with so many different skin types and dealt with so many issues. Because when things go wrong in PMU, they can really go wrong, and you need to know what to do immediately to start rectifying that.

How to deal with clients who are emotional, that’s the hardest bit.

Lisa: Once you’ve honed your skill, the next challenge is dealing with people.

Claire: Exactly. Clients are lovely, but they can also be anxious, stressed, unpredictable. You need experience to navigate that.

Building a Trusted Circle

Lisa: So for masterclasses, how can someone tell the difference between a presenter and a real teacher?

Claire: That’s one of the good things about social media now. If I’m thinking of booking a masterclass, I go to my circle. I’ll message the group and say, “I’m thinking of training with this person, what have you heard?” Have you done the course? What’s their teaching style like?

Lisa: You want to talk to a person.

Claire: Yes. If I’m paying thousands for a class, I don’t want to be dealing with a PA or admin team. I want at least one conversation with someone, to ask questions before I book.

Lisa: You’ve just said something really important, you go to your circle. Your community of trusted people. And this isn’t a business group, is it?

Claire: No, these are techs at all different stages of their journey. I’ve gathered them over the past 10 years, from courses, conferences, subscriptions. People I’ve met along the way who felt like my people. I keep in touch with them.

Lisa: That’s powerful, and so empowering, because you’re all sharing with each other.

Claire: Huge. You can’t put a price on it.

Lisa: It’s worth all the gold.

Claire: It really is.

Lisa: So you built this by just getting out there and meeting people?

Claire: Yes. I went to conferences completely on my own, two years running. Turned up and said, “Hi, I’m Claire. I’m here to learn, throw all your information at me!”

Don’t Rush the Journey

Lisa: So choosing trainers wisely becomes easier when you’ve built a network. You’re not going in blind. And essentially, what you’re saying is, don’t run before you can walk. Let yourself learn. Let yourself build that community.

Claire: Yes, and I think a lot of techs try to rush because of social media. They see these amazing hairstroke brows on beautiful skin and think, I want to do that. But you’re not going to be doing that in your first year.

Lisa: No.

Claire: It took me at least six years before I felt completely comfortable with hairstrokes using a machine. By that point, I’d nailed liner, ombré brows, shaded techniques, but hairstrokes were next. I decided, I want to truly master this. And it’s hard.

It’s still hard. You’ll get a skin that throws you a curveball. You think, That should take a hair stroke beautifully, what happened there?

Lisa: So many people post amazing work in social media groups, and the first question everyone asks is “What colour?” or “What needle did you use?” But the real question should be: “How many years have you been doing this? How long did that take you?”

Claire: Or, “How many hours have you sat with a mat?” or “How many machines have you worked through to find the one that feels right to do hair strokes?”

Lisa: What's your machine? Yeah, and your ink? What?

Claire: I remember trying to do hairstrokes with a particular organic brand, I won’t name it, but I worked with it for a while. It was awful for hairstrokes. Luckily I didn’t do too many before they came back healed, and I thought, Oh my god, what have I done?

Lisa: You had to undo it?

Claire: Yep, I stopped using it quickly. I didn’t just blindly carry on, thinking, Oh, I’ll just pop a bit more in that gap. No, they were blurred. It wasn’t a good pigment for hairstrokes. You learn. You adapt. What works for me won’t necessarily work for someone else.

Learning from Healed Results

Lisa: And there’s a huge number of techs out there, especially those taught with longer-lasting pigments, who only ever see their client once. Either because that client doesn’t need a top-up, or because they’re thinking, You told me it would fade, it didn’t. So, how’s that artist going to learn?

Claire: And that client loses confidence in you. With my clients, I always invite them back. I offer a complimentary brow tidy. One, I want their feedback. Two, I want to see it healed. I want healed photos. It’s really important. You have to work at getting them back in.

Lisa: The reality is, you want them back in because you want to learn.

Claire: Yeah, absolutely.

Mentoring and Masterclasses

Lisa: Let’s talk about supportive mentorship now. We’ve talked about how important support is, and now you’ve built your own network. But mentoring is different. What does mentoring mean to you?

Claire: I find most people who come for mentoring, it’s actually a mindset issue. They don’t feel confident. They’ve got imposter syndrome. They think they’ll never be any good at this.

They’ve been on forums, comparing themselves to artists five, six, even fifteen years ahead. Their confidence is shot. That can come from poor training, or even from good training that didn’t have good aftercare.

You can have brilliant training, but if your tutor isn’t there to answer questions, that good training gets undone.

Lisa: Or you feel too stupid to ask the question.

Claire: Yes! But you know the old saying, there’s no such thing as a stupid question. If you don’t know something and you need to know, ask.

Lisa: So why do you think mentorship, coming to see someone for real mentoring, is overlooked?

Claire: Because people have their initial training, and then they get sold on the shiny masterclasses. All those glitzy photos and techniques, often at huge prices. But they’re not always ready for that.

I’ve been on an eyeliner masterclass where I was one of five. I was the only one who’d been in permanent makeup more than two years. And it was an advanced eyeliner technique.

Lisa: It took me more than two years just to master basic eyeliner, with carbon pigment and all that!

Claire: Exactly. And in that class, there were two trainers, and I was basically left in the corner to do my thing. I was the only one they didn’t have to panic over.

Lisa: You would have paid… well, no, go on, how much was that masterclass?

Claire: £1,500.

Lisa: Pardon?! I wasn’t expecting that!

Claire: It was two days.

Lisa: But here’s the thing, you were ready for that masterclass. Everyone else in the room needed a mentor.

Claire: Yes, they needed to be at a level where they could already do a good lash enhancement. A gentle, tiny baby liner. Then go on.

Lisa: They needed a mentor. And is mentoring expensive?

Claire: Not at all. Mentoring with me is just under £500 a day.

Lisa: That’s around $650–700 USD.

Mentorship That Feels Personal

Claire: You know, they’ve literally got me on WhatsApp or Messenger, they can ask me anything, anytime. I’m not a gatekeeper.

Lisa: Oh, you’re certainly not a gatekeeper. I know you’re not.

Claire: If you’re part of my fold, I’m invested in you. I want to help you as much as I can.

Lisa: I mean, you are such a lovely, patient… patient…

Claire: I am patient, that’s…

Lisa: Yeah, you’re lovely!

Claire: There’s a trainer, I used to work with always used to call me “Calm Claire.”

What Mentoring Can Look Like

Lisa: So does mentoring have to be done in person, or can that be done online?

Claire: I can do Zoom calls, phone calls, half days, full days, there are lots of approaches we can take. There’s a way around everything.

Lisa: So what kind of support would you like techs to know you offer?

Claire: I offer support with business, business building, not just the old rehash of “you need to build your social media.” It’s about what’s relevant now.

Lisa: But you’ve also got to know who you are first before you can go onto social media.

Claire: There are lots of ways to build a business that are accessible, not just through social media.

Lisa: The whole thing is, you’ve got to know who you are before you can really grow your business. So your business support, I know you also offer skill support too, on eyeliner, brows, lips…

Claire: Yes, getting a nice smooth shade. I’ve worked with quite a few techs. They’ll come in, I’ll get them to shade an eyebrow on a mat, and it’s got what I call “zebra lines” on it. It’s not smooth. And that’s exactly how it’s going to land on the skin.

Lisa: So they don’t even need to know what the problem is, you can literally see what the issue is?

Claire: Absolutely. They can just come to me and say, “I need help. I want to get better.” I’ll say, “Right, show me what you can do, and this is what we’ll do.”

Lisa: So what does that look like? Do they send photos first?

Claire: Usually yes, I ask them to send me pictures of their work. Completely raw. Unedited. No filters. There’s absolutely no judgment. I’ve created disasters in my PMU career, I’ve put them right, over time.

Just a few years ago I reached out to one of my very first clients, I knew I hadn’t done my best work. She came back in, and she’s now a very happy client. She was so pleased I reached out after all those years.

Lisa: That’s lovely. The whole way you work, what would you want someone to remember about your mentoring style? What makes you a safe person to learn from?

Claire: Honesty. Completely non-judgmental. If you’re asking for help, I’ll give you help. I’m not here to criticise. I’m here to help you find a way to make it better. Patience. Calm. Consistency. I’m never going to ghost you.

Tailored Support That Fits

Lisa: So is mentoring something someone does as a one-off? Or is it over several sessions, over months?

Claire: It’s totally tailored to the person. Some people just need to spend a bit of time with me on the mat, they go home and practise and say, “Oh my God, it makes sense now.” Then I might hear from them six months later, and we reconnect. That’s fine.

Lisa: So totally flexible, you’re not fixed?

Claire: I don’t do set packages, because of that. I can’t say, “You’ll need six.” You might just need one.

Lisa: One of the things you definitely do is stand out authentically. How can techs themselves look to set themselves apart in this industry, without relying on gimmicks?

Claire: You’ve kind of touched on it earlier.

Lisa: I did a load of work on this with Botched Ink. I worked with a marketing agency to really help me, not to market, but to find my brand pack. My vision. Mission. Purpose. Who am I? What do I stand for? What’s my voice? What’s my tone? What words do I use?

Because I felt, several years ago, like I was flying in the dark. I didn’t really know who I was, and that meant my posting style, my whole way of being… it wasn’t clear. You couldn’t see what I was trying to say, because I didn’t know what I was trying to say.

Claire: That’s something I ask in my mentoring too. I usually send out a questionnaire, and one of the things I ask is, “What’s your why?”

And I don’t just mean “to give my kids a better future”, although that is important. But why have you chosen this particular skill to get you there? What is it you want PMU to provide for you?

I try to get to the bottom of it, like you said, “Who are you?” Is honesty important to you? Is money? I need to know why you’re in this, because then I can help. But first, you need to know you.

Lisa: You do, yeah. For me, I felt so much strength from going through that process. I was coming at it from a different angle, but it’s the same thing, and it was transformational.

The Problem with Facebook Groups

Lisa: When you look at the PMU industry right now… let’s talk about Facebook groups. We touched on it earlier, comparing yourself to others. But how can someone know what they’re even looking at? What’s real? What’s marketing fiction?

Claire: I find in those groups, a lot of people ask for advice, which is great, they’re reaching out, but they might be getting replies from someone who trained last week. You don’t know. They’re just regurgitating what they were told in training, which might not be true.

Or, if you’re lucky, you might get a real industry veteran giving you advice. But you don’t know. You can’t take everything at face value.

Lisa: And some people, they sound very learned. They sound educated. But actually, they haven’t done much. They’ve got knowledge and theory but not experience.

Claire: Exactly. That shows in how they speak. It can be quite impressive, but it isn’t real.

Lisa: It’s not experience-based. And in Facebook groups, it’s hard to tell. There are tens of thousands of people, and you’ve no way to know who’s who. You almost want a little star rating system.

Claire: Wouldn’t that be great for Facebook?

Lisa: Like a little “I’m a nice human” badge, or a private tag system. “Don’t listen to this one, they’re a twat.” “This one’s a star.”

Claire: Exactly. And then you’ve got people posting a photo for advice, and someone just reacts with a crying face.

Lisa: The person who posted is devastated.

Claire: Right? There’s clearly a problem, that’s why they’re asking for help!

Lisa: Or worse, the laughing face.

Claire: Exactly. You’ve just crushed that person. And you’ve given them nothing to improve with. Those are the ones that make me the most angry.

Lisa: When I post, I always try to add value, something that hasn’t already been said.

Claire: Same. I won’t tell someone their work is amazing when it clearly isn’t. But I’ll give a very supportive, clear answer about what they can do next time. Help them learn from it. That’s the point.

Giving Support Without Losing Yourself

Lisa: Do you get a lot of techs messaging you because of the support you give in Facebook groups?

Claire: I do get some messages, usually when I’ve reached out to someone and said, “Feel free to DM me.” I’m happy to help anyone I’ve connected with that way.

Sometimes it’s hard, I’m just one person. And I know a few others in the industry who feel the same. You want to support, but there has to be a line where you look after yourself.

Lisa: Yeah, like, when they start asking training questions…

Claire: Exactly. Some people will drain you of all energy and information. They come back again and again until the cup is dry.

Lisa: And it’s not even about the money.

Claire: No, if it was, I’d be charging way more than £500 a day. But you still have to protect yourself.

Lisa: And sometimes they don’t realise the context they’re missing. They ask a question, but without the background, you can’t give the right answer.

Claire: It’s huge. And you can just end up going down a rabbit hole.

Burnout, Confidence Dips & Finding Your Way Back

Lisa: I mean, it must be draining. The thing I often say when people message me, I don’t mind answering questions, but there’s a point where it becomes a training question. That’s something I’d want to share in a class. Like, “What’s the Botched Ink method?” Well, come and learn. There is a line you can draw.

Coming back to you, was there a time that you felt… I mean, we talked about your early career in PMU, but even now, after being in the industry a while, we all still have moments of doubt. With all the realignment post-Covid… how have you got through it?

Claire: I’m quite a positive, calm, confident person, that tends to be my default. But I do have times when I’m really not.

Lisa: We all do.

Claire: I don’t always let people know. I’ll say, “Everything’s fine,” when it’s not. I came out of Covid convinced I couldn’t do lips anymore. I did one set when we reopened, it didn’t go well, and that was it. The demons set in. I’d been doing lips for five years before Covid, but suddenly I was telling myself, “I can’t do lips.” Which is ridiculous.

I booked onto a masterclass. It was more methodical than fancy, just reinforcing the basics. And they were like, “You don’t need to be here.” But I did, I’d lost my confidence.

I told them, “I’ve come back from Covid, had one disaster, and now I’m adamant I can’t do lips. I’m here so you can help me realise I still can.”

And it did help. Honestly, I’d got myself in such a rut. I was even going to take it off my treatment list.

Lisa: So… do you like doing lips now?

Claire: Love lips. I love it. From scalp, areola, lips, all of it. Anyone who books, eyeliner or anything, I love doing it.

The Little Things That Change Everything

Lisa: I remember eyeliner training, when I had my eyeliner done, just lash definition, I was awful. Couldn’t keep my eyes open. So when I was learning to do eyeliner, that translated, I was no good at it for a while.

One of the things I spotted was I was talking to the client too much during eyeliner. Instead of just shutting up and getting on with it!

Claire: I’m very chatty, until we start. Then I’m silent.

Lisa: Yes! Like, “Shut up, the numbing cream doesn’t last long!”

Claire: I very politely and calmly shut the conversation down. You’ve got my full attention. I’m not looking at my phone or checking a message. I’m there.

Lisa: Is there something you wish techs would stop worrying about?

Claire: I think we’ve kind of touched on it, but it’s the constant comparison. Looking at what others are producing, especially on Instagram, edited photos, it’s damaging. You start thinking, “My work never looks like that.” You can get in a real slump.

Lisa: We can be so cruel to each other. And to ourselves.

Claire: Yes. I hold onto my work sometimes; I don’t look at it for a week. Then I come back with fresh eyes and think, “Actually, that was a good set of lips. That was a good brow.” But if I look straight after, I can be harsh, even I can.

Lisa: One of the things I was awful at you know, brow shapes. When I mainly did PMU, mapping wasn’t really a thing like it is now. I used to map by eye and check with calipers.

I have a good eye for balance. Brows don’t need to match, they need to work.

But the trap I’d fall into was dissecting the photos afterwards. I’d see what I’d done wrong and try to fix it. So I started taking the photo before I cleaned my trolley. Gloves off, photo, then get them to lay back down and fix it.

Claire: I do that! With mapping too. Get them to sit up, take a photo. Sometimes you see more on a photo.

Lisa: That’s the biggest trick, best tip ever. Take a photo. And some clients, their brows are never still!

One tip I taught myself: get them to frown really hard, then the moment they relax and open their eyes, click, take the photo. That’s when the brows are most natural.

It’s not that there’s no excuse for mismatched brows, but there are opportunities you haven’t thought of yet. Tips like that… they only come out in mentoring or 1:1s.

When You Know They’ve “Earned Your Value”

Lisa: When you’re doing a training session one-to-one, that student gets way more out of you than they paid for.

Claire: So much more. As the day unravels, you go down little rabbit holes.

Lisa: Especially if you’ve got a student who’s a sponge. They get it. They’re asking questions. You’ve got them.

Claire: I love being asked questions.

Lisa: And you think, “You’ve earned my value today.”

Claire: I struggle with students who don’t ask questions.

Lisa: Yes!

Claire: I dry up a bit. I’m not sure what avenue to go down.

Lisa: And you don’t know their level of understanding. That’s why I think mentoring is so important, that one-to-one attention. Ask as many questions as you like.

Lisa: Do you find, OK, let’s phrase this carefully, training is one thing, but mentoring is very different. You bloom in a whole different way.

Claire: Yes, mentoring is about growth. Your own individual growth. Training is like, “This is how you do it, this is why.” Mentoring is so much deeper.

Lisa: And we attract those people, Botched Ink attracts them… well, Botched Ink’s me, so I attract them, and I’ve got you, too. People with a high level of thinking. People who question.

And they get frustrated. I get frustrated. You’re learning from someone and you dry them out in half an hour. They’ve got nothing more to give. That’s it.

You’re not dry, Claire.

Claire: I’m just a geek.

Lisa: A knowledge geek.

Claire: I’ll sit there thinking, “That was a lovely presentation, but now I’ve got at least 40 or 50 questions I need to ask you.”

Lisa: One to one.

Claire: And you really should have covered them in your training.

Lisa: You’re about to become a course, aren’t you?

The Future of PMU, Hope, Concerns, and Self-Regulation

Lisa: So big question now, are you excited or concerned for the future of the permanent makeup industry?

Claire: I am personally very excited. I think things have generally moved forward for the better. I think it’s not long before all these dodgy trainers get called out.

Lisa: They don’t last long.

Claire: They don’t. Especially with social media, word gets round.

Lisa: They haven’t even got a website to back themselves up anyway, and you’ll find…

Claire: They come and they go. So I think things are starting to move forward. I’m a little bit apprehensive about all this legislation coming in, purely because the legislation people often don’t even know what we’re talking about.

Lisa: Legislation often focuses on health and safety, rather than skill.

Claire: Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa: I have to say, I’m not… I wish the rule makers would actually come to the experienced people. The stakeholders, us, invite us to these meetings. What needs to be done? Because otherwise, I’m not particularly a fan of more regulations.

Claire: I mean, making everyone have an Ofqual Level 4, that all depends on the standard of the training. I’ve worked…

Lisa: …and there are shortcuts through Ofqual.

Claire: I’ve worked with them since 2001, and I can tell you there are shortcuts and ways of getting students through that don’t necessarily have anything to do with standards or teaching. It isn’t the answer.

Lisa: I spoke to, years ago, an environmental health officer. I was having a good chat with him. I don’t mind talking to people like that. I asked him, “There’s 30, 40 permanent makeup or microblading studios that have popped up in the last few years, why don’t you ever ask to see my work?”

And he said, “We don’t.” They don’t check insurance either. And I was like, isn’t that a problem? But then he said something I thought was disgraceful at the time, but I now kind of agree with it.

“Who am I to tell you that you can’t have those crappy brows?” If you want crappy brows, like a dodgy tattoo, who am I to stop you?

It becomes a problem when someone wants good work but hasn’t researched enough to know whether the artist can deliver. That’s where the industry fails, but that’s also where the clients need to take more responsibility.

Claire: Yeah. I think things are moving forward. Clients are becoming more educated.

Lisa: Aren’t they just? About time.

Claire: They’re researching a lot. I charge a fairly high price for my brows and my work. But those clients, they’ve booked in, paid their deposit, without even asking the price.

Lisa: They’re not coming for the price. They’re coming for you.

Claire: Yeah, exactly that. They’ve looked at my work. They’ve got friends who’ve had my work. They know.

Lisa: But that comes down to again, you knowing you. You projecting you. People being able to see you. It’s always such a shame when really talented artists haven’t got the business bit right yet. You see so many people’s social media, no location, no contact details…

Claire: I find it’s an industry-wide issue. Everyone trains and works for themselves. I didn’t. I wouldn’t have dreamed of working for myself straight after college. I needed to learn what there was to learn, even if it was learning how not to do it.

I was in the industry 18 years before I opened my business.

Lisa: I started on my own straight away. I’ve not had a job since 1999.

Claire: I learned a lot through that, seeing how others did it.

Lisa: I bumbled and fell a few times along the way.

Claire: To learn to do brows and then work from your garden, you’re isolated. It’s not wrong for everyone, but you’ve got no one to call on.

Lisa: But that’s why the community you’ve built, the people you’ve talked to and supported over the years, that’s become so important. So, what’s one small, powerful shift or action a tech can take today to help their business? Someone who’s kind of in the middle?

Claire: One powerful thing… I think the most important thing is to project you. To know you and be you, because you’re selling you.

I mean, you can be amazing at brows. There’s someone local to me who does beautiful work. But she pops someone on a bed, barely does a consultation, doesn’t show them the mapping, cooks them dead, no warmth.

Lisa: She won’t have long-term clients.

Claire: And she hasn’t. Where do they end up? Quite a lot of them with me. So it’s all about who you are, letting people know who you are, and making that message travel through everything. Website, social media, first point of contact.

Lisa: It’s branding you. Not branding “PMU Focus.” Your voice has to follow through, everywhere a client might find you.

Claire: I’ll either pick up the phone or voice message them. I never type.

Lisa: I had a Botched Ink client, not my personal client, one of our techs’ clients, she messaged with loads of questions. Big long WhatsApp, lots of photos. But everything she wrote was really informative, not emotional, just helpful.

And I thought, “Oh god, this is going to be back and forth forever.” So I just rang her. Had a good chat. I don’t mind that.

Claire: You need to speak to a person.

Lisa: However, if anything actually goes wrong, everything needs to be written down.

Claire: Absolutely.

Lisa: Just quickly on that…

Claire: Something that really annoys me, it’s small, but it niggles, the Hey hun culture. Where we’re so overfamiliar with people we’ve never met.

Lisa: Hey babe, I don’t actually mind being called babe. That’s not my issue.

Claire: It’s the fact you’ve never spoken to me. You can be warm and friendly and still professional. Clients are clients. They’re not your friends. And when things go wrong, most people come unstuck because they crossed that boundary.

The “hey hun”, kisses on the end of the message… and then it gets tricky, because they’ve made the client a friend. And they’re not a friend.

Lisa: They certainly won’t be a friend if anything goes wrong.

Claire: Emotion starts to come in. Yes. And all of that. Your written messages especially, they need to be professional. I don’t care if they’re paying you money…

Lisa: Yeah.

Claire: It’s something that niggles me. You’ve got to have barriers.

Lisa: And it’s protecting, not just legally, your energy. I don’t normally like using the phrase mental health, but energy? That hits it better.

Claire: Yes. It is about energy.

Lisa: Some people are just complete energy suckers. And it’s spotting that, and unplugging quickly.

Claire: Probably one of the biggest things to learn isn’t how to do a good brow, it’s how to manage.

Lisa: Yeah. And so many times we hear techs say, “You almost become a counsellor to your clients.” And it’s true.

Weirdly, I’m not even like that as a person, but something happens during a treatment. People open up and spill. But once they leave, I’ve shut the door, maybe clapped out the energy, it’s gone. Forgotten.

Sometimes people come back and say, “Oh my god, I shouldn’t have told you all that last time.” I can’t even remember it.

Bootcamps, Retreats & the Future of PMU Focus

Claire: I’m working on a few things at the moment. I’m working on bootcamps, which is slightly different to how I’ve worked in the past, but I’ve seen it work for people.

They subscribe monthly, get a set number of lessons each month, and it’s broken down into really clear steps and methodology. Like: you need to do this, this and this. By the end of the bootcamp, you’ll be able to do a beautiful ombré brow.

I’ll have bootcamps tailored to different things, shaded liner, winged liner, ombré lips, and even mindset. I’m going to do a mindset bootcamp and all of that.

Lisa: Are these online bootcamps or in-person?

Claire: Online, but they’ll include Zoom calls, like we’re doing now. You’ll check in with others on the bootcamp, ask questions on the platform. It’s going to be a well-rounded way of doing it. Just something a bit different, a different way of working. Trying something else. Helping more people, really.

Lisa: And that’s the whole thing in this industry. You grow, you evolve, the industry does. And if you keep doing what everyone was doing last year… If you don’t try something new, you’ll never know if it could work.

When you said bootcamp, I actually wondered if you meant something like a PMU retreat. There was a conference a couple of years ago that billed itself as a retreat, and I actually thought that was quite interesting. At the time I wasn’t sure it had nailed it, but I got the idea. It could’ve gone further.

I’ve spoken to techs over the years, and more people are going on these retreats, aren’t they? And I’m even getting curious, and that’s not really my nature! I’m curious as a person, but a retreat? I’m starting to wonder… what might that actually do for me?

Claire: I did a similar thing when I learned a treatment last year. It was really good, very immersive. You’re literally living that subject for five days. There was business building, mindset work, meditation, and learning the skill itself. It was brilliant.

And funnily enough, I’ve actually been in talks about running something like that. We’ve discussed it. The challenge is getting your message out there, persuading people that the investment of time and money is worth it, rather than just going on a quick masterclass. It’s managing to get your message across.

Lisa: And that’s always the hardest thing unless you happen to be Insta-famous.

Claire: Yes, but then is the quality going to be there if they’re Insta-famous?

Lisa: Yeah, so what? Sometimes. But not always. We know that.

So I’m going to say thank you. This has been really good. We’ve covered loads, haven’t we? Your passion for this industry, your mentoring, your training, it’s really clear to see.

Lisa: If anyone wants to connect with you, what’s the best way to get in touch?

Claire: It’s always easiest to get hold of me on WhatsApp.

Lisa: What’s your number?

Claire: My number is 0700476730.

Lisa: Is that linked anywhere on your social or website?

Claire: Yeah, it’s on everything.

Lisa: And your Instagram?

Claire: @pmufocus

Lisa: That’s amazing. So people can easily reach you there too?

Claire: Yep, Facebook Messenger, Instagram, email, WhatsApp. It’s all on my phone and pings up. It’s the quickest way.

Lisa: I’m trying to be a WhatsApp girl. It hasn’t got me yet. I definitely use it, but it’s not my first one.

Claire: Over the last couple of years I’ve become a real WhatsApp girl. Anything else now…

Final Thoughts, Asking for Help & the Power of Mentoring

Lisa: So what I’m going to say to everybody is, Claire, anything final you’d like to say?

Claire: Don’t ever feel stupid for asking for help. We all need to ask for help. I’ve had mentoring for business. I’ve had mentoring for skills. And there is genuinely no such thing as a stupid question. If you need to know something, just ask.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s brilliant. This whole talk’s been brilliant. I’ve really enjoyed it. And mentoring, it is mentoring… Oh, hold on. Mentoring’s mindset too, isn’t it? You’ve got to be open to it.

Claire: Absolutely. That’s huge. I think I went 20 years in, I didn’t know that I needed mentoring. Didn’t even see the point in it. Didn’t understand why you’d spend money on it.

Lisa: Thought they were going to transform your mindset and all of this…

Lisa: Oh, I’ve just thought of a brilliant question. What is the difference between mentoring and coaching?

Claire: I think coaching is more prescriptive, functional. It’s “do these steps to get here.” Mentoring is a more rounded approach. You’ll actually grow, you’ll find your own way of getting to the result, not just A-B-C-D like everyone else.

Lisa: I hate coaching.

Claire: I know exactly what you mean.

Lisa: I’ve worked with coaches over the years and I do not like it. It doesn’t sum up what I do. I don’t coach, and I’m too far ahead for a coach.

Claire: Coaching for me is presenting. It’s like giving a slideshow.

Lisa: And it’s a bit like counselling too, like a ready-made method. Coaches follow a certain model. It’s their favourite method.

Claire: “This worked for me, so you need to do this.” Well, that might not work for my business. I need help finding my way.

Lisa: Yeah, and what’s coming next. So that was a good question to finish on. That wasn’t even written down, anybody! Thank you.

And that’s why I stayed away from seeking help for a while. I didn’t like coaches.

Claire: And I think that’s probably the same for me.

Lisa: Then I understood, the people I’ve learned the most from? They might not even call themselves mentors, but they were. They really helped me.

I did loads of self-development, and it wasn’t about “liking myself.” It was about understanding myself, and how I wanted to run my business.

So I’m all for mentoring. I don’t necessarily always like the word, but I like what it does

Claire: Yeah. I think we need to make a new word.

Lisa: We need to make a new word and trademark it!

Right, on that note everybody, thank you so much for joining us. Claire’s been wonderful, hasn’t she? You know Claire from PMU Focus, she’s great on WhatsApp, great on Instagram, and her website too.

Thanks for joining me, and until next time, goodbye.